{"id":63330,"date":"2025-06-18T10:22:04","date_gmt":"2025-06-18T14:22:04","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/www.ccl.org\/?post_type=articles&#038;p=63330"},"modified":"2025-11-13T06:31:15","modified_gmt":"2025-11-13T11:31:15","slug":"addressing-top-talent-development-challenges","status":"publish","type":"articles","link":"https:\/\/www.ccl.org\/articles\/leading-effectively-articles\/addressing-top-talent-development-challenges\/","title":{"rendered":"Advice for Addressing Today\u2019s Top Talent Development Challenges"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>Addressing talent development challenges is crucial in disruptive times, as organizations need leaders who can handle today\u2019s uncertainty and drive tomorrow\u2019s success. But overcoming obstacles like leadership pipeline, employee overload, and development at scale requires a proactive strategy and commitment to continuous learning.<\/p>\n<p>Pete Ronayne, one of our Leadership Solutions Partners, highlights on the <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/episode\/2J2WRi3uQofACYYAnfLXGk?si=xtxq0EjsQsmKTBOtSMEKHA\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">Voices of CLO podcast<\/a> how organizations can tackle the top talent development challenges.<\/p>\n<p>\u201cTalent development shouldn\u2019t be viewed as just a luxury that we can indulge in when things are good and give up on when times are challenging,\u201d Ronayne says on the podcast. \u201cIt\u2019s really a strategic imperative that\u2019s even more important during disruption \u2026 The best way for organizations to create the future that they want \u2014 their prosperity, their people, their purpose \u2014 is to develop the people who will lead them into that future.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Listen to the podcast and\u00a0<a href=\"\/articles\/white-papers\/challenge-of-talent-development\/\">download our new report<\/a>\u00a0to find out how fostering talent development now can position your organization for success.<\/p>\n<div class=\"noPrint\"><iframe style=\"border-radius: 12px;\" src=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/embed\/episode\/2J2WRi3uQofACYYAnfLXGk?utm_source=generator&amp;theme=0\" width=\"100%\" height=\"152\" frameborder=\"0\" allowfullscreen=\"allowfullscreen\"><\/iframe><\/div>\n<h2>Interview Transcript<\/h2>\n<p><strong>Ashley St. John:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Welcome to Voices of CLO, Chief Learning Officer\u2019s podcast, featuring voices of top movers and shakers in learning and development. I\u2019m Ashley St. John, CLO\u2019s editor in chief, and today I\u2019m thrilled to welcome our guest <a href=\"\/leadership-experts\/peter-ronayne\/\">Pete Ronayne<\/a>, a Leadership Solutions Partner with CCL, the Center for Creative Leadership.<\/p>\n<p>Pete works with organizations of every size, shape, and sector to help leaders bring their best, inclusive, innovative, and peak performing selves to all aspects of their lives. He creates innovative and impactful experiential learning programs, including leadership excursions with an eclectic range of partners including art museums, top chefs, farms, a rowing team, a survival school, and even Iceland.<\/p>\n<p>To give a little more background, Pete has been helping leaders navigate change, amplify peak performance, and embrace learning agility for many years. Before joining CCL, he spent 15 years as a dean and faculty member at the Federal Executive Institute in Charlottesville, VA, and he served for many moons as an adjunct professor at the University of Virginia, where he offered a wide range of graduate and undergraduate courses in leadership and organizational development, as well as in international relations and foreign policy. He\u2019s also the co-author of <em><a href=\"https:\/\/shop.ccl.org\/usa\/toxic-boss.html\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">The Toxic Boss Survival Guide: Tactics for Navigating the Wilderness at Work<\/a><\/em>, and is currently working on a book about how individuals, teams, and organizations can burn bright instead of burning out.<\/p>\n<p>So today we\u2019re going to be diving into the importance of talent development. Namely, how in today\u2019s disruptive business environment, organizations that invest in talent now will be better positioned to succeed down the line. We\u2019ll be exploring a new report that CCL has produced, titled <a href=\"\/articles\/white-papers\/challenge-of-talent-development\/\">Supporting Talent Development: Creating Collective Capability in an Unpredictable Context<\/a>, which is focused on the current challenges in talent development and how L&amp;D can address them as well as what Pete\u2019s seen among many of CCL\u2019s clients today.<\/p>\n<p>Welcome Pete, thank you so much for joining me today, on a Friday. I\u2019m looking forward to our conversation. I\u2019ll just hop right into it. I\u2019d love to hear a little bit about you, your current role, if you could share a little bit about your career and your background with our listeners.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Pete Ronayne:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Happy to. And pleasure to be with you, Ashley, and great to jump into the time machine. My path actually is, I think in some ways, relevant to the topic we\u2019re gonna talk about. It\u2019s definitely full of serendipity, I think. Way back when, I started as a French major and then I went into international development. I spent some time waiting tables. I got a PhD in international relations. I\u2019ve worked at Barnes &amp; Noble, taught at a university, and then sort of made this shift more into the space that we\u2019re here talking about.<\/p>\n<p>I worked in federal leadership development at a place called the Federal Executive Institute for 15 years, which really kind of got me into this field. It was a delight, being a public servant for 15 years. While I was at the Federal Executive Institute, I learned about a place called the Center for Creative Leadership. We used some of their 360\u00b0 assessments and they were very much on my radar as a cool place to work, and I got very lucky after my public sector career, I got to join the Center for Creative Leadership as what we call a Leadership Solutions Partner. Sort of like a faculty member at a business school. Been here for over 10 years now. Just a great place to be. Great place to demonstrate kind of a multi-tool role. I get to meet with clients, explore their leadership development needs. Partner with them to develop potential solutions. You know, really get creative, kick it around with them. And then equally if not more fun, get in the classroom, deliver the program, fine tune it, see the impact that it\u2019s having on people, get amazing immediate feedback. So that\u2019s my current role in the Center for Creative Leadership.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ashley:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Oh, that\u2019s great. Out of curiosity, do you ever use your French major? Do you use it a lot still?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Pete:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>No, actually. I shake off the rust periodically, you know. Turn on some show on Netflix and see what I can actually understand. I would say where French shows up most frequently, honestly, is randomly in dreams. You ever have like a dream and you all of a sudden, you\u2019re speaking a foreign language and it\u2019s French? So sadly, that\u2019s when I\u2019m most fluent, when I\u2019m asleep.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ashley:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Oh, that\u2019s interesting though. Have you traveled to France and been able to use it?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Pete:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Yeah, a couple times. It\u2019s there and it\u2019s latent, but I definitely have these moments where I think, oh, wish I had kind of kept at this, like kept practicing the piano so that it would be stronger.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ashley: <\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Oh, that\u2019s cool though. I speak some Spanish, but it\u2019s fallen off over the years, and I\u2019m like, why didn\u2019t I keep it up?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Pete:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>I tested myself on Duolingo a little while back just to see, OK, what level would I actually come in at. It was moderately promising. I\u2019ll just leave it at that.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ashley: <\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Well, I know a bulk of what we wanted to talk about today, I know that CCL released a report recently called Supporting Talent Development: Creating Collective Capability in an Unpredictable Context. When we do publish this podcast, I\u2019ll definitely share a link to the report online. I was looking through it. It\u2019s very interesting. The findings are very interesting. I\u2019d love to explore a little bit more about the report and CCL\u2019s findings while I have you here. But before we kind of dive into it, can you provide some general context for the report? What was behind the research, who was surveyed and when, and kind of the basics.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Pete:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Talent development, leadership development, that\u2019s the space that we\u2019re in. We have the pleasure of on any given day, working with such a wide range of clients, and I think this report was an opportunity to move with real intention beyond just the anecdotal, and here\u2019s what this person is hearing and this is what this salesperson\u2019s hearing, and this is what these faculty are hearing, and actually have some purposeful conversations with clients who, as we know, are facing some new, maybe unprecedented, challenges in developing their talent.<\/p>\n<p>We\u2019re a couple years after the pandemic, and so obviously that was already changing how work gets done. We\u2019re in the midst of some economic uncertainty right now. We\u2019ve got technological disruption with AI and certainly hear, particularly from newer hires, that there seem to be maybe some different employee expectations, and so it seems like a great opportunity, a perfect opportunity to talk about maybe this perfect storm that\u2019s swirling around talent development.<\/p>\n<p>So last year, CCL surveyed several panels of client-facing experts, clients that we\u2019ve worked with, as an effort to capture their perspectives around what are the most pressing challenges that you\u2019re facing in this talent development space and how could we make sense of that and sort of group and cluster it, which we did. We distilled that down into 6 challenges.<\/p>\n<p>I think what\u2019s particularly cool and fun about the report is it\u2019s capturing client perspectives and organizations from their different stages of talent development. Some of those who are newer to this space and really just having preliminary conversations about how do we go about this, like who do we include and how do we scale, all the way to clients that are far more sophisticated and nuanced and are more thinking about how might we reinvent an already pretty involved ecosystem of learning. So, it\u2019s cool to get behind those challenges.<\/p>\n<p>I think the last thing when we think about talent development, and the report talks about this, like a cool way to think about it is sort of a protective scaffolding that helps an organization support itself and its leaders. Sometimes that\u2019s called organizational resilience. I was thinking just the other day because I got a shot. It\u2019s sort of like a flu shot, really, for leaders in the organization. You want to get it ahead of time. It won\u2019t help you avoid challenges coming up or multiple crises that you\u2019re facing, but you\u2019re inoculated, you\u2019re more ready for it when it comes. So that\u2019s what that report is about, and that\u2019s a little bit of its genesis.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ashley: <\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Thank you. You mentioned that the report identifies the 6 most common talent development challenges that you hear from clients, which I\u2019d love to dive into each of them. Correct me if I\u2019m wrong, but it\u2019s pipeline, focus, overload, adaptability, conversations, and scale.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Pete:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Yep, that\u2019s it. Sadly, there\u2019s no acronym in there, or at least, you know, maybe by the end of our conversation we can figure it out and play a little game of Boggle.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ashley:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>I\u2019m sure we could come up with one. I\u2019ll go in order of the way that they\u2019re actually shared in the CCL report. But I\u2019d love to explore a little bit more about each of them, and we can start with maybe pipeline. What are talent and learning leaders struggling with, so kind of what areas are of greatest concern when it comes to pipeline?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Pete:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>The 2 Qs come up right off the bat. They\u2019re struggling with quantity, meaning do we have enough leaders ready for critical roles that need to be filled now or soon. That\u2019s the first Q. The second Q is quality. Are we developing people with the right depth and breadth and the right sort of skills that have them ready to step into and narrow some of these gaps in the pipeline?<\/p>\n<p>It\u2019s interesting. While things like, just the past week even for me with some clients, things like digital fluency and AI understandably grab a ton of headlines. Then there\u2019s also a real sense that alongside <a href=\"\/articles\/leading-effectively-articles\/navigating-the-impact-of-ai-in-leadership-a-social-process-continues\/\">artificial intelligence<\/a>, it\u2019s things like human intelligence and social intelligence that in many ways take on even greater importance now, when you think about curiosity and <a href=\"\/articles\/leading-effectively-articles\/empathy-in-the-workplace-a-tool-for-effective-leadership\/\">empathy<\/a> and <a href=\"\/articles\/leading-effectively-articles\/communication-1-idea-3-facts-5-tips\/\">communication<\/a> and <a href=\"\/articles\/leading-effectively-articles\/4-keys-strengthen-ability-influence-others\/\">influence<\/a>, those things in a way need to be even more amplified alongside those other skills.<\/p>\n<p>And our work, I would say, just conversations that I have with clients and my colleagues have. Then what are our research and reports tell us and even what outside findings say. A McKinsey report recently noted that 86% of organizations report significant gaps in their leadership pipelines. So, there\u2019s this quantity issue and there\u2019s this quality issue with the pipeline.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ashley:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>This next question is kind of a 2-parter, but what do you see clients with struggles in this area, what are they doing to overcome these challenges or what recommendations does CCL or do you have for bridging the leadership gap?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Pete:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Yeah, so a few things come to mind. I know that a lot of clients talk about new hires as a specific issue, with a lot of concerns often revolving around communication, communication skills, and teamwork. And I think this is a fun issue actually to talk about, Ashley. It\u2019s like, it\u2019s a heck of a time that we\u2019re living in and people are trying to lead in. I mean, you think about, so with that notion of communication and teamwork in mind, you can\u2019t not then think about social media and how that might impact communication and teamwork, particularly in sort of a newer employee pool. More and more reports chronicling just struggles with more isolation. How does that impact communication and teamwork?<\/p>\n<p>I\u2019ve read recently that there are pockets of young people, and it admittedly probably falls out along some socioeconomic lines, but some pockets of young people who have less work experience at a younger age than generations before. So maybe there\u2019s a little bit of less readiness when they hit the workforce, the organizations full time. And of course, the working remotely piece.<\/p>\n<p>One approach or solution to that part is to get that early pipeline simply into leadership development early. That often involves scale, which we\u2019ll talk about a little bit later, but it probably most frequently looks like things that are more asynchronous, a little bit more self-paced. But the idea is to start that scaffolding \u2014 talent development is scaffolding and that support that it involves \u2014 start that sooner, even if it\u2019s smaller for a large-scale population. So that\u2019s a first part.<\/p>\n<p>If you think about high potentials, that\u2019s a whole other category, and so that\u2019s more about organizations that really want to accelerate and speed the readiness for people into more senior roles. I think from a creativity perspective, I\u2019ve come across some client organizations who are thinking about this more in terms of what they would call acceleration pools. <a href=\"\/articles\/research-reports\/succession-planning-and-leadership\/\">Instead of a traditional succession plan<\/a>, like I\u2019m identifying Ashley and Pete and Serena, I think that they as individuals could be the next step into the C-suite so we\u2019re going to develop them. Instead of it being that narrow \u2014 though there is still room for that \u2014 thinking more about developing more breadth and versatile leadership capabilities and a larger pool of people, versus focusing on specific people, specific roles. I think that acceleration pool concept is pretty interesting and probably ends up deepening and certainly broadening the impact of talent development.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ashley:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Maybe this is a silly question, but how do they identify then the people who are within those pools?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Pete:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Who gets in the pool, who gets in the swimming pool?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ashley:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Yeah.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Pete:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Right. Yeah, like who needs the floaties \u2026 There are diverse approaches to that for sure, in terms of talent assessment and taking a more rigorous review to talent review. There can be the use of different, pretty interesting assessments to capture high potential capability. We talk a lot at the Center for Creative Leadership about differentiating between high performers and high potentials. I think when organizations adopt that mindset and are looking more for the promise of <a href=\"\/leadership-solutions\/leadership-topics\/learning-agility\/\">learning agility<\/a>, the promise of flexibility, the promise of curiosity, etc., those things define high potential. That can be part of the identification process.<\/p>\n<p>What\u2019s really key, and I\u2019ve seen this with some of the more sophisticated clients that I work with and that I learn a ton from, is that you have a culture where identifying who should be in that pool is kind of everyone\u2019s responsibility, or it\u2019s not just HR\u2019s responsibility. You have other managers and leaders with an eye for this talent, and they\u2019re enlisted in those conversations and identifying who they think should be in the pool. It takes more effort, but the payoff tends to be significant.<\/p>\n<p>I think about a program that CCL has been delivering with a large pharma company for over 11 years now. And I\u2019m really lucky to be one of the facilitators for the program. And this particular organization did do all those things that we were talking about. They have other people looking for talent, not just HR. They think in terms of high potentials and not just high performers. And I say that actually because when I show up in the classroom, where I\u2019ll be on Monday for the first session, you can just feel it in the group. You can feel the readiness, you can feel the engagement. Selfishly, it\u2019s less effort for me to kind of win the group and pull them into the learning space. They want to be there. And I think at its root, that is an organization that\u2019s committed to talent development and really identifying those right people for that pool. And it\u2019s a really good example of this pool approach, because a cohort in that program is anywhere from 40 to 50 people, so it\u2019s a good size. That\u2019s far more of a pool than there are 12 people identified from a much more exclusive experience.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ashley:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>So interesting. Thank you. I\u2019ll flow sort of into the next area of the next talent development challenge from the report, which is focus. I\u2019m curious, when the report emphasizes focus as a big challenge, what does that sort of encompass and what are the drivers behind that?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Pete:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>This is specifically focused on organizations and talent development and what they think about and what they target. This isn\u2019t about the participants and their ability to focus, we\u2019ll come to that next. But it\u2019s really hard to prioritize development, maintain your commitments to leader development. It\u2019s a cost proposition when there are of course competing business demands. But it\u2019s important, right? This pace of change, growing complexity, etc.<\/p>\n<p>We see clients struggle in a couple areas under focus. I think one of them is, what are some of the more pressing and urgent skills, like the kind of a more immediate gap that they\u2019re seeing show up on a regular basis? What are things that are more strategic that are going to drive future success? And a big part of that is if you think about the sort of classic balcony and dance floor metaphor, sometimes when you\u2019re on the dance floor, things look a certain way. It\u2019s busy, it\u2019s noisy, there\u2019s a lot of movement, and it\u2019s loud. And so that can give you a sense of what the most urgent needs are. However, it\u2019s important sometimes if you get off of that dance floor and you climb up onto the balcony and you look down, you see different patterns, you see different movement, you take it in in a very different way. And that can help organizations see a bit more around, what do they need for future success.<\/p>\n<p>I\u2019m reaching over here because I have this whole pile of stuff. And I was going through this the other day, and it was perfectly timed for our conversation. I had this in one of my baskets, and it\u2019s the periodic table of elements of leadership and management. And the reason I show that to you is, think of how this thing is overwhelming. Think if you\u2019re a leadership development professional, and while it\u2019s cool and it\u2019s fun that someone took time to do this and laminate it, there are 102 elements here. Well, that provides you with no focus, that\u2019s a crazy number of things to have to figure out. We definitely see clients struggle trying to figure out, okay, what are the competencies and behaviors that we need to focus on. And we have methods, we\u2019re in this space of helping them walk through that and define it.<\/p>\n<p>And then I think the other focus issue, which we\u2019ve talked about and also have alluded to, is it\u2019s hard to maintain focus on talent development and <a href=\"\/leadership-solutions\/\">leadership development<\/a> when business conditions change, as we\u2019re experiencing right now. And look, I think finally for some organizations, and we encounter these, it\u2019s even more basic than that. It starts with clarifying, <a href=\"\/articles\/leading-effectively-articles\/what-is-leadership-a-definition\/\">what does leadership even mean<\/a>? How do we define that? What do we mean by that? We have a particular approach, we talk in terms of what we call <a href=\"\/articles\/leading-effectively-articles\/make-leadership-happen-with-dac-framework\/\">direction, alignment, and commitment<\/a>. And when those things are happening, when those outcomes are there, leadership is happening. But sometimes it\u2019s that fundamental for organizations to start there and then figure out, okay, what from some massive periodic table do we want to narrow down? How are we going to support this? What is the short-term need and what\u2019s longer term for our success? So, those all swirl around focus.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ashley:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Yeah, I mean, I think that especially with the periodic table, it ties into the next theme, which is overload. When I was looking through the report, I noted to myself, I can only imagine that this is a huge one right now, not just from a work perspective but in general. Just everything feels very overloady right now.<\/p>\n<p>How can organizations keep leadership development effective when people are this busy and overloaded and overwhelmed in some cases?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Pete:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Yeah, and I\u2019d be curious, how does overload show up for you, Ashley? When you think about your work, your day to day, what are some of the hallmarks of that for you?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ashley:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>I would honestly say, I get very deer in headlights. It\u2019s almost like if I feel like I have so many things that I need to tackle, I can freeze and get nothing done. From a leadership perspective too, I think it\u2019s, if you are overloaded with your day-to-day tasks, or for example, I\u2019m in a leadership role but I\u2019m also doing a lot of editorial work for Chief Learning Officer. If I\u2019m overloaded, I\u2019ll go right to those immediate tasks that I can get done, like editing an article, but then all the strategic stuff and everything that I really need \u2026<\/p>\n<p><strong>Pete:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Yeah, you go to the check the box stuff, the thing that gives me a sense of, I got this done, I can move on.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ashley:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Yeah, but the deer in headlights thing is a big one, just freezing and kind of hiding, like a turtle in a shell.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Pete:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Yeah, it\u2019s not at all uncommon to hear that at all and I appreciate your share, because I think it dovetails with how we think about overload at a couple of levels.<\/p>\n<p>When I was reflecting on this, this might be close to the number one challenge that I hear about, so N of one, N of Pete as CCL faculty member when partnering with clients, and then especially when we collaborate on actual program design. It\u2019s because it\u2019s at the core of this, and in your own answer and experience, I hear a little bit of this. This is another fascinating issue with multiple threads, because the core question here is really one of attention. Attention is the holy grail of learning. We remember and we learn what it is we attend to, where we shine the narrow beam of our attention. And work and life are so busy for people, are sometimes boundary-less, like work seeping into every corner of your household. We have people with different life stages and related responsibilities. We have devices on us almost all the time that are also designed to capture and hold our attention, so we\u2019re in competition with that.<\/p>\n<p>It really creates, I would say, a heck of a paradox where leaders need more development than ever. And we have client organizations talking about this need and these gaps, but those same leaders that they want to develop will self-report, like, \u201cI don\u2019t feel like I have the wherewithal for this. I\u2019m not sure I have the bandwidth.\u201d And you can look at any number of different reports, Ashley, and you\u2019ll easily get numbers like 70 to 80% of leaders feeling sort of just overwhelmed by workload. To your example, the strategic stuff kind of goes away. It\u2019s also easy for the learning stuff to go away, developmental activities.<\/p>\n<p>And lastly, I think we also know that people that are flirting with burnout are far less likely to learn. They\u2019re way less likely to be curious, very difficult to be a good collaborator when you\u2019re even just approaching burnout, you\u2019re not going to deal with change really well. And how likely are you when you\u2019re in that space to sustain any positive behavior change? Which that\u2019s what leader development is all about. It\u2019s really important to name that and really sort of design and approach talent development around it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ashley:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Flowing into the next one, adaptability. I think it\u2019s a question so many are struggling with right now, and CCL\u2019s report sums it up really perfectly. We want to be ready for the future, but we don\u2019t know how to prepare for what we can\u2019t predict. I think that\u2019s the big question right now. What are the specific difficulties you are seeing leaders cope with today?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Pete:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Yeah, and I think even prior to flow into adaptability, just another word on overload, if you don\u2019t mind?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ashley:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Oh, yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Pete:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Because I think there\u2019s a real connection here, because it\u2019s hard to get to either individual adaptability or organizational adaptability without addressing that overload piece. And so it\u2019s one thing to diagnose it, which I think a lot of people can do, but when we think about that and we think about leader development, I know for sure the Center for Creative Leadership, we think about it in very holistic and very human terms about leader development.<\/p>\n<p>Our experience tells us clearly that when programs, when talent development is actually <a href=\"\/articles\/leading-effectively-articles\/create-better-culture-the-keys-to-wellbeing-and-leadership\/\">built on a foundation of wellbeing<\/a>, both yours as the participant but also others who you are responsible for, when we create conditions for learners, for leaders to what we like to say, burn bright instead of burning out, it sets them up for leader development at a much higher level of success. We talk about things like being intentional about your health and recharge, and that should be part of programs. We equip people with tactics for that. You throw in things like understanding cognitive overload, how much we can keep in our minds in short-term memory, how important things like spaced learning are, so people have reflection and processing time. Those things matter hugely. It\u2019s not just about content and warehouses of content. It\u2019s thinking about, how can we really intentionally craft these experiences with actual human beings and how they learn and how they bring their best selves in mind \u2014 bring that to the actual development experience.<\/p>\n<p>And so from there, getting into the adaptability piece. It\u2019s hard to be thinking about the future and adapt to it if you don\u2019t have the wherewithal and the focus and the energy. The quote that you mentioned, this notion that we want to be ready for the future, but we don\u2019t know how to prepare for something we can\u2019t predict. I think CCL right now, pretty thoughtfully, is describing this as what we call the <a href=\"\/articles\/leading-effectively-articles\/leadership-in-polycrisis\/\">polycrisis<\/a>. I\u2019ve heard others call it like a perma-crisis. It\u2019s basically this notion that we\u2019re sitting at, increasingly at this confluence of multiple challenges, multiple crises at any time, at any given moment. And in many ways, it\u2019s kind of the next evolution of VUCA, which has been around for a long time, since the late \u201980s. Volatility, uncertainty, complexity, and ambiguity. I think the adaptability challenge speaks to that core dilemma that organizations are facing.<\/p>\n<p>How do we develop leaders for a future we can\u2019t predict? What we know and what our research into polycrisis tells us is, if you do work on things like complex problem solving, continue to work on improving collaboration and relationships, fine-tuning leaders\u2019 abilities to have a future orientation, those sorts of things, you\u2019re setting them up with the adaptability to deal with some of that unpredictability and that increasing likeliness of dealing with the polycrisis.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ashley:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>This is an aside, but I did not realize that VUCA had been around since the \u201980s.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Pete:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Yes, so the source code of VUCA was actually at the Army War College in Carlisle, Pennsylvania. It was at the tail end of the Cold War, so that\u2019s what we\u2019re talking about, late \u201980s, early \u201990s. And some big thinkers in the Army were thinking, all right, with this adversary, the Soviet Union, going away, what\u2019s this new world going to look like? How do we define it? And they came up with VUCA to describe that world. Everyone\u2019s borrowed it since then and it seems still pretty relevant and applicable.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ashley:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Apparently yeah, some things don\u2019t change.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Pete:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>VUCA seems to be a constant in some way.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ashley:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Chaos remains constant. Continuing on with the adaptability, the report suggests that organizations must adapt how they\u2019re adapting. What can that look like in practice? What should they be focusing on?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Pete:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Yeah, this is a favorite. I love this concept that I learned at the Center for Creative Leadership. By the way, a great part of being at an organization like this, and I\u2019m sure at yours, is all the learning that we get ourselves. And so, it really is all about shifting from thinking mostly about the skills in leadership development and focusing also on capacity. It\u2019s 2 things. And specifically at CCL, we talk about horizontal development and <a href=\"\/articles\/leading-effectively-articles\/developing-talent-youre-probably-missing-vertical-development\/\">vertical development<\/a>. Horizontal development is, we\u2019re adding more skills. We\u2019re going to help Ashley with active listening. We\u2019re going to give you a couple different ways of influencing up the chain of command. We\u2019re going to equip you with a new feedback model.<\/p>\n<p>Essentially, think of a glass and you\u2019re that glass, your leadership is that glass, and we\u2019re going to pour more content into the glass. That\u2019s important, absolutely, horizontal development. Pairing it with vertical development is really the sort of next stage in thinking and being adaptable. Vertical development is, what if we actually made the glass that is your leadership bigger. It\u2019s more capacity, it\u2019s more capacity to think differently, to see with more depth, to perspective take, to have system views, that sort of thing.<\/p>\n<p>And I was thinking about this too, and it was sparked by 2 things. I heard one observer talk about this, Ashley, in baseball terms. I don\u2019t know, are you a baseball fan at all? Do you pay attention to the game?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ashley:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>I mostly just go for the hot dogs, but I understand the rules.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Pete:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Hey, that\u2019s an important part of our wellbeing, the hot dogs. but you get the basics of the game?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ashley:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Yep.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Pete:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>And for anyone listening, even if you\u2019re not a baseball fan, you probably have a sense that on every baseball team there\u2019s someone who runs the day-to-day of the team in the game and that\u2019s the manager. Pretty important, it\u2019s a key leadership role in baseball. And this report pointed out, and I just love this, it\u2019s stuck with me ever since. That historically, a disproportionate number of managers and Major League Baseball teams came from a particular playing position. They were mostly players before and a disproportionate number were in a particular playing role, one position, and that position is catcher. So historically, 22% of major league baseball managers have been catchers. In 2015, it was 40% of managers, and it\u2019s even 30% today.<\/p>\n<p>And if you think about it, there\u2019s usually only 2 catchers on a baseball team. And then you have a ton of outfielders and a ton of infielders and a whole fleet of pitchers. Why is that? It\u2019s sort of a vertical development thing, because think about the perspective. The catcher is the only one looking this direction. They see the whole game, they see all of the other players, they see all of them. They have the system view. They probably have the most vertical development over their careers. And so, this article talked about how through your leadership development efforts, how through your talent development, do you kind of develop the catcher perspective in more people? It\u2019s not just about their skills, it\u2019s about that vantage point.<\/p>\n<p>And if we can just rip from headlines, so we have a new pope, all the excitement and interest about the unanticipated American pope. Think about it. Pope Leo, if you think about the vertical development that he has experienced. He was a math major, he was a missionary, he was a parish priest, a seminary teacher. He\u2019s American and Peruvian. He was the head of the Augustinian Order, he was a bishop, and then the Vatican leader responsible for bishops. And by the way, he\u2019s a baseball fan too.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ashley:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Oh, really?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Pete:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>So, throw that in the mix. But think about that vertical development, how of course he was developing different skills along the way, but think about the vantage point, the perspective taking, the system thinking, the capacity to think in bigger and different ways that all of those different roles and responsibilities afforded. And some of them were lateral and some of them were vertical moves, for sure. But nonetheless, that creates the kind of adaptability to address and lead in a world that\u2019s unpredictable.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ashley:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>I think you have a talent for tying these big concepts to current headlines and tangible things like baseball. It\u2019s a talent, it makes it make sense to me.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Pete:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Well, and to make it even more tangible, because people listening think okay, that\u2019s great, but I\u2019m not a pope and I\u2019m not going to make my way through the Vatican leadership, or I\u2019m not a baseball player. But you can bring that same intention around adaptability and vertical development into talent development. Like for us, we often will do it with simulations. That puts you into a different kind of perspective in a different kind of role. We do it through what we call organizational excursions, just getting out of the classroom, Ashley, and going to meet with and talk with leaders in different organizations in totally different fields.<\/p>\n<p>One that is particularly enjoyable, you just see participants take to it. You go out to dinner, not at all uncommon, right? You\u2019re in a program, and one evening the group wants to go out for dinner, great. But what we do is in advance, we arrange it so that it\u2019s not just dinner, but we\u2019re going to have a conversation with the chef and the owner at that restaurant, and they\u2019re going to talk about leadership in their world and engagement and keeping people motivated and customer centricity, whatever. It\u2019s a totally different field but through that lens and through that conversation, you absolutely elevate people\u2019s vertical thinking. We can do a lot of skill building in the classroom, but then when we get out, you get that vertical development, you get that perspective taking. We can amplify that even more with things like learning how to row with a world-class team or working alongside a pit crew or a survival school or horse trainers, you name it. So that\u2019s a way that you can do it, but at work you can do it too through rotations and coaching and merging programmatic learning and experience.<\/p>\n<p>We care about the <a href=\"\/articles\/leading-effectively-articles\/70-20-10-rule\/\">70-20-10<\/a>, CCL pioneered that. 70% of learning happens through challenging experiences and assignments. If you craft that, one of our clients does an amazing job with action learning, Ashley, and that action learning provides them an opportunity to practice the new skills they\u2019ve been working on, the horizontal development, while gaining vertical development by being placed onto action learning teams with challenges that are completely outside their area. They purposely assign people to problem solve in some part of the company that is not at all where they work, they don\u2019t know anything about it. And they walk out of that with a much more enhanced system view, system perspective, empathy for other parts of the organization, their development is vertically enhanced. Very cool, very fun.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ashley:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Yeah. I\u2019ll pivot a little bit into the next challenge.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Pete:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>I know I get all fired up about vertical development.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ashley:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>It\u2019s interesting. No, I love it and I\u2019m glad that we have it all recorded in the podcast. The next challenge is conversations. And around this one, I was curious if you could provide a little bit more context. What is lacking in today\u2019s conversations and communications?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Pete:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>I remember myself, if I\u2019m fully honest, when I first learned of our work and focus in the conversation space, and I kind of had my own quizzical reaction and I thought, that seems kind of, I don\u2019t know, simple, which I think maybe people have that reaction at first. I get how it might seem a little bit almost pedestrian at first, but then you quickly realize that it is not pedestrian, it\u2019s actually pivotal. It\u2019s actually profound how important the conversations angle is to talent development. Conversations in leadership development, conversations really are the overlooked building block of leadership. I mean, conversations hide in plain sight, but oftentimes we just rely on rituals and habits and routines in terms of how we approach them.<\/p>\n<p>I think at root, what\u2019s most lacking, to your question is, there\u2019s a bit of an imbalance in what we might call the task-relationship dynamic. And this is exacerbated probably more and more by more and more virtual work teams. It\u2019s easy for work conversations, especially when you\u2019re virtual and remote, to very quickly just get down to business. We have things to talk about, we have things to get done, let\u2019s talk about those. And throw in the fact that because so many more of us are virtual, we don\u2019t have the serendipitous hallway conversations, where you just run into somebody and can meaningfully connect with them. And where there are, things are more about personal connection and feelings and challenges. I mean, it\u2019s very difficult to have a serendipitous hallway conversation on Zoom. I mean, I don\u2019t log on Zoom and hang around hoping someone will come by and have a chat.<\/p>\n<p>I think that\u2019s a big part of it, and there are significant numbers of managers, I think even our research shows that over 60% of managers talk about, there\u2019s just less confidence in their ability to have difficult or connecting or challenging conversations in a virtual environment. That\u2019s definitely exacerbating it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ashley:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>I believe CCL is completely remote, correct? Internally?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Pete:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>No, we\u2019re not.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ashley:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Oh, no, you have the office. That\u2019s right. I was getting confused. Your office is in the Greensboro area, correct?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Pete:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>We have Greensboro, Colorado Springs, San Diego, Singapore, and Brussels, actually, and people in those spaces and a significant remote workforce. So, look, we are learning and exploring and figuring this out right alongside every other organization.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ashley:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Obviously, we were in person for many years, and then in 2020 we went fully virtual, and we are still fully virtual, and that\u2019s one of the things that I definitely struggle with, that I miss is those serendipitous hallway conversations, but also just popping over to someone\u2019s desk and being like, \u201cLet\u2019s chat about this really quickly.\u201d It\u2019s like you have to set up a meeting.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Pete:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Or do the little Teams thing and hope someone\u2019s there to answer, but it\u2019s highly unlikely.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ashley:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>It\u2019s tricky.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Pete:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>I\u2019m with you. And so we talk openly about that, and we really do, we have some marvelous research-based approaches to addressing it. We call it <a href=\"\/leadership-solutions\/leadership-coaching\/coaching-skills-better-conversations-training\/\">Better Conversations Every Day\u2122<\/a>. And again, it\u2019s so simple in its conception and even in its description. And look, it\u2019s not about amazing life-changing conversations every moment. It\u2019s just, what if you had slightly better conversations every day? And when you focus on and we create opportunities for people to practice, really practice listening to understand? Remember our overload conversation. We\u2019re so pulled in different directions and constantly distracted, etc., when you really bring intention to your listening, what a game changer that is. When you can shift from being a problem solver for your team into question mode and asking open-ended powerful questions like, how might someone else see that differently? And what if you had a magic wand, what would you do? Or how would your 8-year-old self see this issue, Ashley, or how would your 80-year-old? It changes the dynamic and becomes one of exploration and connection.<\/p>\n<p>And remarkably, when people engage in deeper conversations, especially when people are overloaded and stressed, when you lace together these skills, you create what we\u2019ll call a virtuous cycle where people are showing up with more vulnerability, which builds more trust. And that trust allows for more vulnerability, builds more connection, builds more <a href=\"\/articles\/leading-effectively-articles\/create-better-culture-build-belonging-at-work\/\">belonging<\/a>. And all of that ultimately, it\u2019s proven just to fuel better performance \u2014 leader performance, team performance, organizational performance.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ashley:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Yeah. Well, I think you flowed right into a couple my additional questions about conversations, which were, how can people managers improve, and what are the outcomes of these deeper conversations? Is there anything else you wanted to add around that theme before we move into scale, the final one?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Pete:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Yeah. There was a story, I remember working actually with a particular healthcare leader and group during COVID. And I would say kudos to them, they maintained a commitment to leader development, and we had to do a major shift to online. And she reported, basically, I\u2019m kind of paraphrasing that, \u201cwhat really kept our team together and our performance moving and accelerating through that, wasn\u2019t that we had more resources or that we had a budgetary boon, etc. It was this opportunity that CCL created for us to have better conversations. And in that case, better conversations about our concerns, our real challenges, and the hopes we had during this difficult time.\u201d And then it was the foundation of those conversations that built the connection, the resilience, the momentum that they needed to get through the crisis. So again, while conversation can seem pedestrian, it\u2019s not, it\u2019s really profound.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ashley:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Absolutely. The final challenge that\u2019s outlined in the report, which I think is a big one, and I think the report even mentions that at many organizations this can be the biggest challenge of them all, is scale. I\u2019m going to read a little piece of CCL\u2019s report.<\/p>\n<p>It detailed how many organizations have excellent pockets of development with initiatives for specific groups like executives, emerging leaders, those who are deemed hi-pos, or select teams. But this can create a piecemeal or patchwork approach, which fosters inconsistencies across the broader leadership ranks, and gaps in knowledge and values across teams, and divisions that can hinder decision making. Sorry, that took me a minute. What recommendations do you have for organizations to create a more unified development strategy?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Pete:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Yeah, it\u2019s a good one. <a href=\"\/articles\/white-papers\/creating-competitive-leadership-advantage-4-ways-that-scaling-development-powers-engagement-retention-roi\/\">The scale<\/a> comes up a ton for sure, and in many ways, it really does flow naturally from both pipeline and focus. This idea of, how do we create consistent, high quality development opportunities across an organization. And when we talk about across an organization, any given week, CCL might be working with a 200-person organization, that\u2019s one scale, but it matters to them. We might be working with a 20,000-person organization or larger.<\/p>\n<p>If you think back to focus, I think a big part of scale does start there with figuring out, what\u2019s going to be our common leadership language in our framework. So doing the discovery that requires, figuring out the actual capabilities, the language that we want to use, the competencies and behaviors we want to anchor around, so that then we can be consistent with those across levels. I find a lot of programs are really effective when they are cross level and you do have these basics that everyone covers and touches on, even though they might customize it differently for a group of new hires versus the C-suite, but they still have these core sort of leadership values and behaviors that everyone needs to live into. I think that\u2019s an important part of scale, that common language and consistency. It\u2019s fun, honestly, and very rewarding when you work with an organization and you\u2019ve worked with them for a couple of years and you see that. You hear the consistent language, that shared leadership lexicon across levels. It\u2019s amazing and you can feel the momentum and impact that has.<\/p>\n<p>I think second, this is no surprise, but scaling is often also about being real intentional about a blended approach. The reality is, and I know that you\u2019re interested also in potential hurdles to this, cost of course. And in an ideal world, everybody gets together for powerful face-to-face programs and it\u2019s transformative. That\u2019s not a reality. It\u2019s not now, it wasn\u2019t before either. So I think we see great impact with clients who partner to create leadership learning ecosystems that include self-directed programs, like we have one called <a href=\"\/leadership-programs\/frontline-leadership-impact\/\">Frontline Leader Impact<\/a>. So that is generally targeted at a particular leader level, but shared leadership lexicon and foundational understanding. We have things like what we call <a href=\"\/leadership-solutions\/leadership-development-tools\/passport-leadership-content-subscription\/\">our Passport program<\/a>, which will give you access to our whole library, but it\u2019s also customizable. There\u2019s train the trainer. And you can do that alongside sending some participants maybe to an open enrollment program someplace, maybe CCL.<\/p>\n<p>And where we\u2019ve seen a lot of this scaling work very well is let\u2019s say, Ashley, you and some colleagues attend one of our open enrollment programs. You come back, you report to your colleagues about the impact, about what really worked. And often you say, \u201cWe need this for more people.\u201d Then that\u2019s the shift into, what would a custom learning journey look like for a director level or a VP level high potential audience? You\u2019re addressing all of the levels, but it\u2019s for sure is not a one size fits all, and cost is always in mind.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ashley:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Yeah. In addition to cost, where else do you see clients sort of running into hurdles or challenges?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Pete:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>I think one big one, I was in a conversation just earlier this week that ultimately kind of centered around this, which is thinking that any learning platform that has a lot of stuff is the solution. You have to think about more than just warehouses of content. And I see clients run into that, where they rush into something that involved volume and a lot of content, but it lacked any ability for curation, like consultation, collaboration with that partner to really make it fit what their learners need and what learners and users will actually do in that client\u2019s context. Then you end up with low adoption, you paid a ton of money for this warehouse of information that no one\u2019s using. I definitely see people run into that.<\/p>\n<p>And then I think a second part is relying on or putting too much of a burden on managers to drive development and development conversations without actually first equipping them with the skills that they need, which leads to its own inconsistency. And also, to your point, if I don\u2019t feel comfortable doing that, I\u2019m going to focus on the things that I\u2019m good at and I can get these things done. And your development, I\u2019m going to keep pushing off and pushing off because it\u2019s just not my comfort zone. I think those 2 pieces are additional hurdles, for sure.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ashley:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Yeah, that completely makes sense. In this area of scaling, how do you think that organizations can start to take concrete action or what would be next steps for organizations where this is something they\u2019re definitely coping with?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Pete:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Yeah, so it\u2019s certainly a strong point of view from the Center for Creative Leadership because this is what we do when we think about it. But first off, just viewing leadership development and talent development as a core business process, and that it\u2019s integrated and that it\u2019s systematic, just like you would with your financial reporting or accounting or product development. Not like this random collection of disconnected programs, that doesn\u2019t help at all. Sort of rationalizing what you\u2019re doing and where you want it to go, and being really intentional about, how are we blending like nano offerings, little, short, bite-size things, all the way through micro, mini, and major learning journeys all the way through. But that you\u2019re understanding what\u2019s happening in all of those and you\u2019re thinking through, what would it look like if Ashley were a new hire and started in this program and then 3 years later, she\u2019s ready for the mid-level talent program? Is there rationalization? Is there flow? Is there connection but not duplication? Those sorts of things, that really helps you get at impactful scale.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ashley:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>With everything we\u2019ve discussed \u2026<\/p>\n<p><strong>Pete:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>It\u2019s a lot. You\u2019re very patient.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ashley:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>It\u2019s a lot.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Pete:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>I get worked up and \u2026<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ashley:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Oh no, I think it\u2019s great. I love to hear your insights around all of these. Kind of to sum up, I think the big stressor behind this, or the big thing that we want to emphasize, is obviously the importance of talent development more than ever before in positioning organizations for success. I\u2019m curious, are there inherent challenges you see among talent development teams in taking kind of a holistic approach to preparing themselves for the future? Are there issues with leadership buy-in when finances are tight? Or what do you see as being hurdles?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Pete:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>I\u2019m trying to think if I call it a hurdle. I was trying to think of another word for it, but look, I would just say the press of AI right now and the push for what we need, that technical skill and that integration, that can be a hurdle or it can at least on the surface seem like it\u2019s something needs to replace more leadership development, that as we talked about before, they really need to go hand in hand. That artificial intelligence is best leveraged with human intelligence and social intelligence. I think that\u2019s an inherent challenge that can get in the way of a more holistic approach.<\/p>\n<p>You can have pockets of an organization that are just more vocal or better at asking for and promoting themselves for development. And I think similar to that, there\u2019s a tendency for that high potential focus or that immediate succession focus, and that is a little bit narrow, and it certainly moves you away from the more holistic approach, so you have that broader pool that\u2019s ready.<\/p>\n<p>Now when you talk about leadership buy-in and look, finances are tight. Like you said, the future of the economy is uncertain. And there was Gartner research that shows that, and we know this, learning and development budgets are usually the first to be cut, along with travel during downturns. But actually, it diminishes your ability to be ready when things bounce back. There is evidence that organizations that maintain or even increase, believe it or not, their investment in talent development during difficult times, when things bounce back, they actually outperform their peers.<\/p>\n<p>I think 2 things for me, it\u2019s sort of like your network when you think about individual networks, and there\u2019s always the advice. You need to build the network now that you need then, or sort of like that flu shot I mentioned before, getting a flu shot after you already got the flu, not super helpful, but getting it before, doing talent development before, positions you to get through that crisis more effectively and be ready to bounce forward once you\u2019re through it.<\/p>\n<p>And I\u2019m always reminded, you\u2019ve probably heard this story, it\u2019s so old, but it still seems relevant to me. The sort of apocryphal story when a boss says, \u2018Well, what if we invest in all this leadership development for our people and then they just leave?\u2019 And their HR counterpart says, \u2018Well, what if we don\u2019t invest in them and they stay?\u2019<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ashley:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>So true.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Pete:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>You know? I mean, it\u2019s sort of thinking about it that way. I think there are creative ways to win buy-in as well. I\u2019ve had the pleasure of being involved in nano-journeys for the C-suite. We\u2019re going to give you this little micro, microburst and taste of what\u2019s going to be in this program and to enlist you as a champion. I love when clients invite C-level leaders and even just below to kick programs off, to come to lunch-and-learns, whether it\u2019s virtual or face-to-face. One of the clients I get to work with, they do a fantastic job with what they call leaders as teachers. There\u2019s a dedicated afternoon where a series of leaders come in and they rotate through these panel conversations, and it adds an organizational level, it adds some vertical development to it, but it also enlists senior leadership in supporting this. It enrolls them in the program. They get firsthand input and feedback from participants. I think those are some fun and creative ways to get over those hurdles and, like you said, get leadership buy-in.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ashley:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Yeah, absolutely. I wanted to wrap up with one final question, and that\u2019s, what\u2019s the number one takeaway that you would want people to leave this podcast conversation with?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Pete:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Hopefully they leave it being reminded that leadership development and talent development can be fun. It can be engaging, etc., and multidisciplinary, but in particular, that talent development shouldn\u2019t be viewed as just a luxury that we can indulge in when things are good and give up on it when times are challenging. It\u2019s really a strategic imperative that\u2019s even more important during disruption, polycrisis, VUCA, etc. So, developing people now to meet those challenges, but also for the future.<\/p>\n<p>Way back when, Peter Drucker famously said, \u201cThe best way to predict the future is to create it.\u201d And so the best way for organizations to create the future that they want \u2014 their prosperity, their people, their purpose \u2014 is to develop the people who will lead them into that future that they create. So that\u2019s what I\u2019d leave us with.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ashley:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>I think that\u2019s fantastic. And just a big thank you for hopping on with me, especially on a Friday.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Pete:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Oh, my pleasure. I\u2019ve been looking forward to it. I mean, geez, you give me a microphone, you see what happens.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ashley:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Oh, no, I think it\u2019s wonderful and I\u2019m so glad we had the chance to catch up today and spend some time together discussing this. Thank you.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Pete:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>My pleasure. Yep, anytime.<\/p>\n<h2>Ready to Take the Next Step?<\/h2>\n<p><em><strong>Learn the 6 most common talent development challenges we hear from our clients, and the ways that we\u2019re partnering with organizations to overcome them, by <a href=\"\/articles\/white-papers\/challenge-of-talent-development\/\">downloading our talent development challenge\u00a0report<\/a>.\u00a0<\/strong><\/em><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Hear how to tackle top talent development challenges in disruptive times with insights from a leadership solutions partner on the Voices of CLO podcast.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":96,"featured_media":63332,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_oasis_is_in_workflow":0,"_oasis_original":0,"_oasis_task_priority":"","footnotes":"","_links_to":"","_links_to_target":""},"tags":[],"class_list":["post-63330","articles","type-articles","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","categories-disruption-uncertainty","categories-talent-development","region-global","article-type-leading-effectively-articles"],"acf":[],"yoast_head":"<!-- This site is optimized with the Yoast SEO Premium plugin v26.6 (Yoast SEO v26.6) - https:\/\/yoast.com\/wordpress\/plugins\/seo\/ -->\n<title>The Crucial Role of Talent Development in Disruption | CCL<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"Hear how to tackle top talent development challenges in disruptive times with advice from a leadership expert on the Voices of CLO podcast.\" \/>\n<meta name=\"robots\" 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